The EngagED Midwife
The EngagED Midwife
From Pen to Practice: Navigating the World of Midwifery Publishing
Ever wonder how midwifery knowledge makes its way from practice to publication? This episode pulls back the curtain on the world of midwifery publishing with two luminaries who shape how we learn and share our profession's wisdom.
We're joined by Dr. Melissa Avery, editor-in-chief of the Journal of Midwifery and Women's Health, and Dr. Julia Philippi, lead author of the foundational text Varney's Midwifery. These publishing powerhouses share their journeys and offer practical advice for midwives at every career stage who want to contribute to our collective knowledge.
"Your work doesn't do you," Dr. Avery reminds us. "Until we write about it and disseminate it, no one else is really benefiting from it." Both guests demystify the publishing process, from crafting that intimidating first draft to navigating peer review. Their message is refreshingly straightforward: just start writing. Whether you're considering a clinical case study for JMWH or wondering how textbooks like Varney's evolve to reflect contemporary practice, this conversation provides the roadmap you need.
We explore the differences between journal articles and textbooks, the value of becoming a peer reviewer, and practical strategies like forming writing teams and protecting your writing time. For students and educators, Dr. Philippi offers fascinating insights into how midwifery texts might evolve to meet changing learning styles, potentially moving beyond the "eight-pound two-ounce textbook" to more interactive formats.
Whether you're a student, new graduate, or seasoned midwife, this episode will inspire you to share your unique midwifery knowledge and experiences. Your voice matters—and with the right approach, it can strengthen midwifery care everywhere.
#EveryMidwifeHasAStory #AcademicMidwife #GetPublished #MidwivesWhoWrite #TheScholarlyMidwife #TeamworkMakesTheDreamWork @jblearning @midwiferyandwomenshealth @juliaphillippi
Welcome to the Engaged Midwife podcast. This is Kara. And this is Missy.
unknown:Hi.
SPEAKER_01:I am having so much fun with this season. I can't even stand it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think some of the fun is that we're having really awesome guests hop on with us on our episodes. And today's another fun one with some experts.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, nobody wants to listen to just us.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I mean, okay, sure.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, unless we're pontificating about football season and Taylor Swift.
SPEAKER_03:And then That is true. That is what we like to talk about. But today we have some really, really cool midwives with us. And um we're gonna talk about writing and publishing for midwives. And while that may not sound exciting to other people, it is certainly something that's really, really important. And we have two of the best to talk with today.
SPEAKER_01:So today we're focusing on the power of the pen and how we get our voices and our work out there for other people to enjoy. I said your work doesn't do you, your work can benefit your patients and your colleagues in your immediate like vicinity. But until we write about it and disseminate it, like it no one else is really benefiting from it. So that's where this topic becomes really important. We all have a story and or a discovery or a piece of wisdom that really can change how we practice midwifery, whether that's as a researcher or as an academic or as a practicing midwife. So to help us navigate this conversation, we have two powerhouses with us today.
SPEAKER_03:We're incredibly honored to welcome Dr. Melissa Avery, who's the editor for the Journal for Midwifery and Women's Health, and Dr. Julia Philippi, one of the brilliant lead authors for the essential textbook, uh Varnay's Midwifery. So welcome Melissa and Julia.
SPEAKER_00:Great to be here. Thank you. Thanks so much. It's a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01:So Dr. Melissa Avery is a distinguished midwife scholar and educator. She is our editor-in-chief of the Journal of Midwifery and Women's Health. Dr. Avery earned her Bachelor of Science and Nursing from Northern Illinois, a Master's of Science and Nursing from the University of Kentucky, and her PhD from the University of Minnesota. A lot of you who know her know that she's been a professor at the University of Minnesota for nearly three decades, and she's the past president of the American College of Nurse Midwives. Her research is focused on topics like perinatal care practices, maternal confidence for physiologic labor and birth, and interprofessional education between midwifery students and obstetrics and gynecology residents, so near to my heart, since that's what I do now. She's also editor of the book Supporting a Physiologic Approach to Pregnancy and Birth and a Practical Guide. So welcome to Dr. Avery. And Dr. Julia Philippi is a certified nurse midwife, educator, and researcher. She's the lead author of our foundational textbook, which is Varney's Midwifery. That's the one I think during midwifery school that I like slept, like put my head on hoping that I would learn biosmosis. But she's also the associate editor of the Journal of Midwifery and Women's Health. So Dr. Philippi is the chair of Family Care Community and the immediate past director of the Nurse Midwifery program at my alma mater, Vanderbilt University School of Nursing. And over the course of her 20-year career, she's practiced in rural and urban birth centers and hospitals. Her research interests include access to perinatal care, the birth center model of care, and interprofessional antenatal care. She's been funded by organization organizations such as the Agency for Health Care Research and Quality, the National Institute of Health, and the Health Resources and Services Administration. So we are so lucky to have both of you here today to talk to us about all things publishing. So I think Kara, you have some questions to start off for Dr. Avery.
SPEAKER_03:I do. Well, and so I also want to mention you and I have talked numerous times about being at annual meeting and sitting in the room with the textbook authors and feeling like we had imposter syndrome and that sort of thing. And now it's so fun because the authors of the textbooks and the journal articles and all of those things are our friends. And so it's really, really fun. I hope that some of it just rubs off on me. But Melissa, we'll we'll start out with you. Um, as the editor of JMWH, you get to see a lot. You see the good, the bad, um, and the brilliant of what people submit to the journal. So, what's one piece of advice you'd give to a midwife who's thinking about submitting um their very first article?
SPEAKER_00:Well, the short answer is do it. Because if you don't get started, you won't do it. Um, but you know, to reflect just for a moment on what you were just saying about these other people sitting in the audience. Um, I'm fond of saying, and I know Julia feels the same way, that you know, I'm just a midwife like everyone else. I happen to be the editor of our journal right now, and I've been at being a midwife for a long time. But um, I love to talk to new people. I love to talk to authors that are interested in our journal and talk about our journal and its history. And so don't ever think that somebody's like too big to talk to. Just come up and talk to us or write me because we want to talk to you. We like to encourage new people and get people going and help them to start writing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's absolutely true. You guys are so approachable. And I don't know that I've met a midwife that isn't willing to uh talk and share and bring people along with them. So I think that's really good. The answer is always no if you don't submit um something to the journal as well, right? So you might just get a yes.
SPEAKER_00:Can't get it accepted or or not. And you know, at JMWH, we have a we have an approach, a philosophy of supporting new authors. You know, we are the journal of the American College of Nurse Midwives. We are the only midwifery journal in the United States, and we want to we want to share what midwifery is all about with each other and with our other colleagues. And so while midwives in the US are many of our authors, we also have authors from around the globe that that um publish in our journal. We also publish articles from physicians, nurses, nurse practitioners, public health people, all kinds of people that share, you know, a view or an approach, a philosophy like ours and can contribute to what's going on in midwifery. Julia.
SPEAKER_02:I want to chime in and say that JMWH is one of the most nurturing um peer-reviewed peer-reviewed journals that I've been a part of, either as an author or as a peer reviewer. My first publication with the journal, I was a PhD student, I was new at this. I think Tacoa King must have had eight revisions with me to get it right. And I learned a lot about how to write through my interactions with the editors at JMWH.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's awesome. Well, and you bring up a good point, Julia. I, you know, Melissa, what is the role of a journal editor? And um maybe help us learn a little bit about the process.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. So I I kind of think of it in in two chunks. One is sort of the high level, the high level approach. Like I'm responsible to make sure that an issue of our journal gets published every two months. That's kind of the bottom line. That's my job. But a lot goes into that. You know, we have two deputy editors, so there are three of us that work with authors, but we also we screen a lot of manuscripts that come in. We receive so much now. It's really increased a lot. We receive a lot of manuscripts, and we just can't with our small staff can't publish it all. So we look at a lot, we have columns we write, so we have those authors, we have regular manuscript authors. We're working closely with our publisher to make sure everything gets produced and that it looks good, that the all articles are high quality. Um and uh so that's kind of the high-level view is there's there's a lot going on, a lot of a lot of wheels in the process. But but separate from that, really the part that's near and dear to my heart is really supporting our profession and the practice of midwifery. We're here to support midwifery. It's what we're about as a journal. Um, again, we are the journal of the American College of Nurses Midwives, so we're we're all about midwifery. But as Julia was saying before, we really, really want to support new authors. We want to help people get going and come along and grow in the profession. You know, a lot of what's really important in a profession is publishing and sharing your knowledge and getting it out there. That's what health professions do. And so that's what we're about, and we're about helping people get going in that business.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So what would be some tips for new authors on getting started? Like what should they, what would be the first steps in submitting something to the journal?
SPEAKER_00:Well, um, the the first one is just to sort of decide to do it and say you're gonna do it. Um, one of our um contributing editors who's also been an associate editor, Sharon Bond, she and I wrote an editorial back in 2022, July, August. And we talked about how to become a new author. And so, you know, you can really do anything. I mean, if you're a new writer and you're also a researcher and you've got a project that you're doing, well, you're probably going to write a research article about that project. But if that's not the case, we have a couple of kinds of articles that are really good ones to start with. And probably the the most straightforward approach is one that we call clinical rounds. And Julia's mentored many people through writing those articles over time. It's pretty straightforward. It starts with a clinical case. It's usually a composite of people that you know the author has cared for over time and really addresses kind of the background and an approach to managing the care of the person identified in that case. And really, you know, updating, usually you would do that because there's a reason to know something new about the topic, and updating um your colleagues about what's going on with regard to that particular situation. So, anyway, we talk about how to kind of get going in that article. So that's a good way to start. Another thing that's going to sound funny, but it's true, like read the aims and scope that we've written about the kind of articles we like to publish. I think sometimes people just start writing or they're in a graduate program and they were assigned to write an article, and then their professor says, Oh, this is really good, send it to a journal, and it just comes. But it's got to be within the scope of the kinds of things we want to publish. In addition, we have instructions for authors and we have a guide to writing it the right way. You know, we go along with the AMA style guide. But in addition to that, we have some specific things related to midwifery and how we like articles to be. Because in addition to the issue every two months I mentioned, we need for our stuff to look good, to be consistent, to have a consistent look and approach. So you know it's a good quality journal. But back to the writing, take a look at that. We have a we have a collection of articles on our website, which is just at jmwh.org that can help and answer some things about publishing. And then Wiley, our publisher, has a link on our journal homepage also about publishing. So there are many resources. And I always oh, oh, let me just say one more thing quick. I always tell people don't hesitate to write to us. And so if you just can remember, jmwh at acm.org, that goes to our managing editor. She and I communicate every day. Just write to us and say, hey, is this of interest? What do you recommend? We're always happy to hear from people.
SPEAKER_02:I want to build on what Melissa said on um start with the Amazon scope and start with the headings that they have for whatever style of article you're writing for. I like to, you know, when I'm talking to students in a in a writing class that I taught in the past, I feel like the blank page is like saying, Oh, I'm gonna go hiking, but you're not gonna go on a trail or have a map. So go ahead and get the maps that are out there for you. It's gonna make your path much smoother. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I have to add to this because Linda Hunter, God bless her, was just working through some revisions with me. And she's like, Missy, you have to fix these tables. And I in every revision, she's like, you have to fix the tables. And I don't know how dense I was like to not think that like I could not figure out what was wrong with the tables. But I'm like, oh yeah, the style guide. I just need to go to the style guide. It's like the silliest thing, right? But it's there for a reason, right? So that everything looks the same. And um Linda's uh God sent, I was actually publishing this article with a former DNP student of mine, and you know, helping her like navigate through this, right? Her very first publication. Um, she is an older doctoral student. She's like, I can't believe at 62 I'm writing my first article. And I was like, but you are, and that's amazing. And nobody was gonna know how amazing your doctoral work was unless you were gonna write about it. It could just, you know, live in the confines of your program, or now it's out in the world for other people to learn from. And so I think that other message to that is it's like you're never too old to do something, right? Um, and you're never too old to disseminate information. But man, that style guide, it is there for a reason. But I do love what Julia said too about like the headings, right? The headings are so important, depending on what you want to write. They look kind of different.
SPEAKER_03:So well, and I think also the instructions are so great because it can tell you like about how many words total, about you know, this many references. So you can take maybe you do have something that you had to do for a scholarly project or something like that, and you can say, is this even appropriate? Would I what how should I write to it? Even better is when the instructors have them write to the style of who they want to submit to. That's my favorite thing, but um I'm sure you get lots of different submissions. I'm curious, uh, back to you, Melissa, what makes a really strong submission and what are some of the pitfalls that some people fall into?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, some of the things we already talked about. So it it sounds so straightforward, except that maybe you wouldn't be surprised how many submissions we get that that aren't formatted, the basic ways that we ask for things to be formatted. And maybe it shouldn't matter, but again, it's important to us in producing a quality product. So I would say again, look at the scope of names, look at the instructions. But then um, you know, something you said, Missy, you talked about working with a student. So it's really nice to have a mentor. And as I mentioned before, Julia, I know Julia does a lot of that in her work, we all do. But if there's somebody, if you have a natural mentor, work with that person. If not, you know, work with somebody that you know who has um who has published some articles before makes a huge difference. And who can you partner with in the article? Because it's it's far less common to see solo written articles than it used to be in my early days as an academic. So it just, you know, it takes takes a partnership to get it going. And then um, you guys were talking about the headings. I always say, funny as it seems, start with an outline. And the outline is sort of what you were talking about, but I find that I think a lot of people don't just go to the basics and write an outline. You know, what's the first big topic? What's the next? You know, kind of go from your broadest to your most narrow addressing the type of article you're doing, but get an outline and figure out what you want to say.
SPEAKER_03:And then um, you know, I'm not convinced though, Melissa. I'm not convinced that everyone knows about an outline. So even mentioning that is really good. Um, those of us, you know, that are maybe a little older or more seasoned, uh, certainly remember that from elementary school, even and write handwriting out an outline or having the you know index cards and you like file them into your like physical outline. But um, it's a really good point. I'm glad you brought that up.
SPEAKER_02:I want to um Kara and I are working on a manuscript currently, and we actually got the reporting checklist for the thing that we were doing. So we're working on a qualitative piece. So um, and the journal requires now that you submit the reporting appropriate reporting checklist with your um with your manuscript. And so we pulled up the reporting checklist, and um at one point Kara's like, oh, I can just relax now because I know what my sentences need to be, because this is what I need to do to do a high-quality manuscript.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. That's a great uh a great thing to bring up. We we've gone from recommending them to requiring them. And and I want to just emphasize what you said, Julia, they're reporting guidelines. Sometimes people think those checklists are like how you do a project, but not true. It's really how to report on the project you've done to make sure that every piece that needs to be there to help a reader understand um, you know, what this is about, what you've done, why you're doing it, you know, so what at the end, right? The so what part at the end. So that's what it's about. But they are helpful and they do kind of give you a little outline there, don't they? But it really is to make sure that we're communicating with each other um completely by using those that a lot of experts have spent a lot of time coming up with. So we have moved to requiring those with articles. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely helpful. My most recent submission, I got an email back like, hey, we think you should report this differently. Like you did these reporting guidelines, but we think you should submit it this way and change your headings and do different reporting guidelines. And I was like, okay, great. I wouldn't have thought of that. Like I had submitted it one way and they wanted it another way. And I'm like, so it's again like having people that can read through your work, right? And be able to say, like, I think you should wrote like report this differently or write this differently. And I think that also has to do with the impact of your work too. Um, but I've told this story before, but my very first article that I wrote a million years ago was a not a midwife mentor. It was just somebody who had written a ton of articles in her tenure of being like a professor in my university. And she's like, Listen, I know you can do this. And I was like, it's so intimidating. She's like, it's okay. I know you can do it and I'll walk you through it. And that really started for me, I think, this like, you know, continuous motion of writing just by one person saying, I think you should do this. So I cannot, I think, stress enough this idea of the right mentors. And like you were saying, Melissa, like a natural mentor could be your project advisor, your dissertation chair, but it also could just be like somebody who's in the office next to you who's done it a hundred times before you, right? Or, you know, I love the interdisciplinary approach too. Is there somebody who's written in another discipline that you actually are really good friends or colleagues with that can also walk you through it? Like I think thinking outside of the midwifery box, too. They may not be content experts, but they may be experts in their own field and have published a lot of things ahead of, you know, what you're asking them to do.
SPEAKER_00:So absolutely. Somebody with expertise just in the writing process. And then let me take it a step further because you started hinting at it, Missy. Once you write it and send it in, these days in particular, there's very little that's just going to get accepted straight out into the journal. And I know it's true with chapters and books too. It's a process, it's not just a one and done. So it comes in, it gets evaluated by some peer reviewers and an editor and some comments back. And so just even learning and working with somebody through the process of revision, getting something back that has some comments but some things to do better. And even if it's, you know, you know, you've been offered the chance to revise it and send it back, then how do you how do you work through that process and just the feelings you get? If there was anything critical, we try to always be very positive about how to make things better. But um that that whole process is a different piece in and of itself. So um just remembering that the people writing back to you want to help make your work better and help you make it better. And so by taking the time and thinking through, you know, what's been recommended and then working on that is good. Now, sometimes somebody will recommend something to you that doesn't make sense to you because it's your work and there's a reason. And that's okay too. Just say, you know, I disagree with this recommendation. Here's why. We get that all the time. We expect that because we don't know your work as well as you do. But but that process is like the next step and a really important one to get used to when you've not done that before.
SPEAKER_02:I will say that um, you know, feedback is a gift, but it's hard to see it as a gift. And whenever I get peer review back, the first thing I feel like is that little boy Ralphie in a Christmas story when the when the teacher gives him a C on his paper about the rifle, and you just feel crushed briefly. But then honestly, the feedback I've gotten from peer reviewers and and particularly from editors who help soften or or channel the peer reviewers' requests have like always improved the document. I feel like I have ended up with a published paper that was a lot better as a result of peer review and working with an editor. Um so just be prepared for being routhy, just give it a half a day and then get started.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I was told early on as an educator to um read my student evaluations after a glass of wine. And I think that's probably not a bad idea for reading um review comments that come back to you after you submit something too. Um but I'm glad, Melissa, you mentioned it a little bit, I think, of the process of peer review. And when you get those comments back, I've made it into a table and put each of the different, you know, comments and then my response to it. And you're exactly right. Sometimes the response is, I did it this way because that was the right way to do it. And that is my interpretation. And I think the editors just want to see that you own that and you have rationale for why you did what you did. Um, and then, you know, when you do make a change, you put that in the table as your response as well. But that's how I've kind of done it in some of my work, and I think a lot of um writers probably do something similar.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we do ask people to give a fairly detailed response, especially in the first revision. We don't necessarily always ask for it after that because usually then you're kind of in a slightly different mode once you've gone through the process of the first revision and evaluating it. But it it does help. And we specifically ask for authors to address each piece and how that's been um assessed. It makes it much easier on the editorial side when it comes back again to do that. I'm gonna just go back for a second, Julia or um uh Kara before I forget. And that is you asked about pitfalls. And so we've been talking about what to do. So not doing those things is the pitfall. But what I what I wanted to be sure to say is that I think one of the things that's that makes this process difficult is when somebody might be tempted to just try to do it too fast. I mean, revise, revise, revise, get help, have somebody else read your paper, because ultimately what we want is for your good ideas, your good research, your good clinical syntheses to be to be able to be um used and read easily and comfortably by readers. So you're writing for somebody else, and most of us when we write, at least initially, until someone says, What did you mean here? We're we know so much about the topic we're writing about that we forget and we aren't as detailed sometimes about how things were done or what we exactly meant. So precision and simplicity in language, revising a lot and remembering that you're writing for somebody else and make sure you're writing a piece that a reader can understand, take in, and then use it in their practice or their research or their policy work.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Sometimes even with paper, student papers or different things like that, I will have them suggest like have your spouse, have your sister, have a colleague, somebody read it, even if they're not in the medical field. Like, does it just do the sentence structures make sense? Because our brains fix what we see. We we know what we meant to say. And so sometimes we don't see some of those errors.
SPEAKER_00:But exactly right. My husband reads every editorial I write.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. I love that. Well, and we know spouses of midwives are pretty incredible people.
SPEAKER_01:My favorite tool with this too is to read it out loud to yourself. Reading things out loud, I think you can actually hear what it sounds like coming out of your mouth. And I'm like, oh, like reading out loud makes sense. It's one of the things I tell my students, and it's what I do with my journal articles now. Like, is this train of thought the right one? And will it make sense to whoever's reading it? Right. Yeah. So maybe we should tap Bob and say, Hey, Bob, you want to start reading my journal articles? He'll be like, Miss, I hear enough about breasts and vaginas without having to read your journal articles as well. That's right.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, Melissa and Julia don't know about our podcast episode where we interviewed our husbands about what it's like to be married to a midwife.
SPEAKER_03:Maybe we should redo that. That was, I think, back in like season one or two. I think things have changed a bit since that time.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I just have to throw in my husband and the husband of a good friend of mine once did a stand-up comedy routine at a big midwife gathering about what it was like to be a PNM partner of a nurse midwife. It was hilarious. When they call in the middle of the night, say just pit em.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, our husbands know they'll like drink a big glass of water and take a bath. Call me back in two hours. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you guys have mentioned a lot about how to be successful as an author. I want to mention that I one of the first things that I did, other than my very first article, was with my program director, Dr. Gingerbreed Love, back in 2004. And um, that article, I have been actually getting a lot of alerts about it recently because it was about ovarian cancer detection. And there's so much in the news right now. But um I I think one of the first things is becoming a peer reviewer. And um, I know that, you know, being a peer reviewer is something that's needed. Sometimes someone may submit your name as an expert in the field and the journal may reach out to you, but also there's occasionally calls for, hey, do you want to get involved? And I did I've done that and I've been a peer reviewer for several different journals, but it has helped me in my writing, in seeing others and doing critiques of others. Um, and it has really helped me even as a researcher in making sure that like I have a really good understanding of methodology and reporting methodology and that sort of thing. So um is there, is there usually a is there an open call, or how would you like for people to reach out if they're interested in doing some peer reviews?
SPEAKER_00:We always haven't, I I will say perhaps sometimes unspoken, but um, but a call. We we a couple of years ago we added some information to our website. So there's a whole little section for peer reviewers, but we we always are it's like the job of the editors and our our our um editorial board to recruit peer reviewers and invite people to submit articles and peer review. So we always welcome new peer reviews and reviewers, pardon me. And you're right, you're absolutely right, Kara. It it not only is a huge gift to the profession, and I mean that sincerely, it is a huge gift to the profession to peer review for our journal journal or any other journal that's that's uh out there, but it also is a huge learning opportunity because when you read somebody else's work and you see how that flows and what doesn't quite fit for you, and how it could maybe flow a little differently or better, um, that's huge learning, but it's also a gift to give that back. So we always welcome peer reviewers to our journal. Um all that somebody has to do is again write to JMWH at acnm.org and let us know of your interest. Um and then um let's see, there was something else I was gonna say and it'll come back to me in just a second. Oh, the thing that we we highlight, like there's a lot that peer reviewers do. There's a little checklist, we ask for feedback, there's a lot to think about. But the number one thing that I try to tell people that we've condensed into a very terse, precise sentence is the best way to be helpful to the authors and the editor is to say something uh about the value of the manuscript. There's always that, and then also to give some specific recommendations to the authors about how they can make their work better. And just doing that thing as a peer reviewer makes such a huge difference and is such a gift to us as editors. We rely on the peer reviewer comments and recommendations to the authors to make our decisions, and it's also a huge gift. To the author when they go to revise their work.
SPEAKER_03:So Yeah, I think that's so helpful. And I just want to mention two things about being a peer reviewer, and then we'll um jump over to hear from um Julia about Varney's midwifery. But I think, you know, as a peer reviewer, I'm always terrified of being reviewer too. There's all the memes out there about being reviewer too. So I I do want to be a kind reviewer and um not always reject everything. But I have gotten to where as soon as I get the invite and I know what the due date is, I put several reminders in my calendar right away so that I'm not I I tended initially to always get like the follow-up emails of like, hey, this was due two days ago and you haven't done it yet. And I know that as an author, waiting on those reviews is so important. And the editors can't do their work until they get the reviews back. So I think putting reminders in our calendars and having time to read and review is really, really important. And then the other thing that I've done, and you guys mentioned Linda Hunter earlier, but she was one of the um editors that I was working with recently. And as a peer reviewer, I asked for feedback. And I'm like, am I way off base? Like, I feel like this was like, you know, and she just gave me such good feedback. Um, and I think that feedback to the reviewer is also helpful of you're right on target. This is what we need, this is why we keep inviting you, versus like, uh, you could have maybe said that in a little different way, or you know, we we definitely want we want this kind of work, and how can we do better at it? So really, really helpful.
SPEAKER_02:Point out that one of the things I love about JMWH, and there's a few other journals that do it as well, is that you send back the editor's feedback to the author. Like, I still don't know who the author is, right? I still don't know who the other peer reviewer is, but I get to see my uh comments, which is it's several weeks back. So I've had some perspective too, and then the other peer reviewers, and then what the editor says. And it's funny because whenever the editor says, well, pay attention to blah, blah, blah reviewer, that was me. I was like, Oh, I get like a gold star, like I did it right. So um, that's really important to help I think new peer reviewers grow, and it really does give you some, I think, some happy feedback about your value in doing that.
SPEAKER_00:I have to do that.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so I love peer reviewing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. If we do do that, and I'll just, I'm just gonna say to be fully transparent, as we are transitioning to a new system to interact with peer reviewers and authors, we are going to be working to retain that uh feature in the new system. Uh, it doesn't appear that it's there right now, but we do like to send the feedback from the peer reviewers and editor to the peer reviewers so they can see. And the other thing I want to say is that there isn't a right or wrong answer for peer reviewers because people will always say to me, Oh, how did I do? What do you think? Kind of, you know, what you were talking about, Kara. But the thing is, your impression is your impression. So just tell us, take the time to tell us, you know, what you liked about it and where it can be better. And different people will pick up different things because often when I invite peer reviewers, I'll invite a researcher and a clinician, and they're gonna look at things very differently. Uh, you know, some the same, but but different, different views. And so all the feedback is good and worthwhile. Just provide it to us and and to the authors because it really makes a big difference in all the work that we do.
SPEAKER_03:Do you want to introduce Julia and ask now, or do you want me to do that part?
SPEAKER_01:No, I already gave her intro, but I can do that. Um I can talk a little bit about about the textbook, like leading into the textbook.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because I started because we flip-flopped those two sections.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know. It just has your name next to it, which is why I was like, why are you pointing at me? Okay, give me a second. So I think we've talked a lot about the journal, and I'm I have so much that I could say about writing and the process of writing and how amazing it's been to be able to publish with Melissa and her colleagues at JMWH, but I want to talk to Julia a little bit about how you get yourself into working on a textbook like Varney and you know what that process looks like and how you even think about tackling a project of that size and scope, also with knowing where it has come from, right? Um, you know, I was a brand new baby midwife when Helen Varney was still sitting at the dome table, which is amazing, right? Um and I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm sitting next to Helen Varney and I've got her book. Like that is so amazing. But then you taking, like taking over that process, right, from somebody who's one of like our four mothers of midwifery. But Todd, talk to us a little bit about the the book and how you got involved with that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I want to start by saying I had a great co-editor, Ira Kantoritz Gordon is lovely. I got to like meet with him every week for months. Um, it was it was fabulous. So I have a great team that I've worked with. And I I feel like how I first got started was honestly working on publications for the journal, right? Like those are smaller, you can get your hands around those. Those clinical rounds pieces are a lot like writing a textbook, except they're super patient focused, right? So by kind of cutting my teeth on those uh initial publications, I got experience writing in a concise way, using headings like you guys talked about, and working with the journal's um editorial team and editors who really I think helped me grow as a writer. And then from there, um most midwives um read the journal. They read it cover to cover, not everybody. Um, some people just read the back, some people just read certain things. But um, you get to know who are the writers amongst us, and that's how you get invited to be on the chapters, is that people have read your writing before and found that it was concise and person-centered. Um, and then they they ask you to be a chapter author. Usually you're a chapter author with someone in the beginning, like having an accountability buddy is fun. Um, and then from there, I just got more invitations. Okay, would you like to do this? Would you like to review that? And then from there, that kind of led into the textbook. Um, and I was still working closely with the previous editors in this edition. If I needed anything, I could reach out to them. Um, luckily, midwives like to nurture people, and so it's usually a very collaborative process as growing into editing instead of writing. Um, but then it was lovely. I got to work with all these great midwives across the country on really cool topics. Um, and it was great. And then if I got stuck, I had Ira as a co-editor run things past, and he had the same with me. So it was just a really nice way to help further midwifery um by being a part of that process. And I totally agree with Missy, like you're taking a document that that you know, every midwife in the US has read, right? And you want to do it justice. Um, so that was that was fun to carefully consider how to do that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and each version of Varney's, you know, has expanded so much. But when I think of the most recent edition, um, which you guys are probably already starting to work on the next version, I'm guessing. Um, but uh it when I think of the topics and and how much text there is compared to the version that Missy and I had back in 2004 and 2005, um, it's a very different textbook than it was 20 years ago. And that was a heavy lift for you all. Um, just even thinking about the person-centered care and the care of transgender and gender non-conforming individuals and early pregnancy loss and abortion care, all of those different things, uh, making sure that it's really covering the full scope of midwifery.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it was interesting. And I think your word heavy lift is appropriate because I actually weighed the textbook and it is eight pounds two ounces, which is the exact same weight of two of my children at birth. So um I think it is a heavy lift. And I think one of the things that we're doing now is thinking carefully on what it looks like for future learners. An eight-pound two-ounce textbook is rather hard to card around. Um, is it that we need to move away from print, or is it that we need to move to more interactive features? And if we do move away from print, is that going to be good for learners who say want a quick translation into their language of origin so that they can just confirm that their understanding of the text is what they think it is, using a language that's more familiar to them? Is it would that be helpful? What can we do to best meet learners' needs? Because in the past 10, 20 years, we've had this huge ramping up of how people encounter information for learning. Um, and I love textbooks. I love moving the page over, I like highlighting and writing in that margins, but my kids don't. So, um, and I think we need to move to where learners are rather than where we think learners should be. So that's been one of the deep things we've been doing as we approach the next edition. I think every edition has major changes, and maybe this edition will have format changes as well.
SPEAKER_01:We are big proponents of people reading, but not just reading, annotating how they read. And when you're talking about like digital formats and making things accessible to students, we are always telling students that they will make and create neural pathways by not just reading, but by writing down the things that they need to understand. And so in alternate formats, right, and doing things differently for students, it makes that easier to accomplish. When we were all students, because we're all of a generation that I can say this about, is that we took a lot of notes, right? We wrote a lot of things down because that's that was the mechanism by which we learned, right? We had to write things down on, you know, pieces of paper. And now students in this generation do not do that, that they don't study the same way we do, they don't learn the same way we did. But I think, yes, alternate finding alternate ways to to have them available for students is so important. What do you think the biggest um difference is between your work writing um in and editing Barney and writing for publication like in a journal?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so um writing for publication in a journal, I like to tell people, yep, cite every factual statement. You don't get to not cite a sentence until you're old and gray, right? And I'm getting old and gray now. I got to write an editorial for the journal, and I was like, I'm not citing every statement. Um, in textbooks, there's a lot of broad things that are just kind of known to be true, and you don't have to have a citation for each one. Um also in the journal, it's a lot more didactic. It's a lot more mentoring someone along. And it's kind of like the starter kit of any particular topic. So, like you don't start kids on Legos with those super complex, huge packages that have all the tiny pieces, right? You start them on something easy, right? That they can get their hands around, they can they can make that thing without getting frustrated. Um, and then if they want more depth, then they're gonna buy the Lego kits that they really like, right? They're gonna get into more depth in areas that they want to be in. And so the textbook is pretty superficial compared to reporting on science and research. And that's hard for some researchers to do because we we love this topic. We want to tell you all about it when really the textbook is here's how you get started, here's what's safe. Another thing is that the textbook just doesn't give you knowledge, it's a lot about knowledge, but it's more than the science. Um, it's the sensitivity on how you work with people, the compassion, the framing. Um, and we are very midwifery forward textbook, but other other professions use this textbook in in part too. And so we want to get the midwifery hallmarks and the midwifery approach out there, um, but be sensitive to there's a lot of ways to work with individuals and do it well.
SPEAKER_00:One other thing I will just chime in when we think about textbooks and textbook writing versus journals. When we as editors and reviewers look at journal articles, we want to say what's new. And that's very different than the question for a textbook, which is what do we know now? What's how do I do this? What do I need to know to do this? But if somebody's writing in a in a journal, it's going to be what's new because you don't want to write for people about what they already know and what's been done for the last hand, four years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So, Julia, tell me about what you think the impact of Varney's is. I've already shared that, like, you know, that's a textbook that we've all learned from and used. You know, how do you see that, you know, impacting students for for years to come?
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's funny, I know what Varney meant to me, but I really don't know what Varney means to the learners now, other than when I interact with people. Um, and like my students, for instance, didn't realize that I was the editor of the textbook until fairly late into the semester or this time. I, you know, so I'm a department here now, so I don't see them every day. But I don't think the the students in general are looking at the authors on the front cover, and someone was like, I I finally read the cover and that's you on there. And I was like, oh, well, that's very sweet. That that that's important to you. But I don't know if it's what is sculpting them as much as some of the other things they encounter. Um, and I think that's a really good question. How is Midwifery affecting learners now? And how can we best make it so that Varney's a part of that journey, but really spurs them into kind of, you know, opening the door and realizing how much is behind each chapter that they can really get into.
SPEAKER_03:It's funny to think back. Oh, sorry, Missy, I'm thinking back to my Varney's um edition. And I want to say it may have been like a 2002 um edition or something like that, because I graduated in 04, but um there was a poem inside the front cover or the back cover. It was inside the cover, and it talked about holy births and howling babies. Um, I don't know if anybody remembers that, but I still all the time will wish other midwives when they say they're off to a birth or something. I'm like, oh, I pray for holy births and howling babies. And I'm sure they think I'm nuts, but it has totally framed my midwifery career in thinking about howling babies are good. Good, healthy babies howl. So um, yeah, I think Varnese is so important. I always say it's like the I don't want to say the bio, I don't want to like upset anyone around religion, but it does feel like it is the key text for us in practicing in the US. And um, I have also jokingly said that, you know, I I'm in the Midwest, I'm in the belt buckle of the Bible belt, and everybody growing up in the 80s and 90s had the WWJD bracelets. I always feel like we should have WWVD. What would Varney do? Um, because it is so much about the midwifery scope of practice. We have so many other textbooks that we can take from and different resources and up to date and the CDC and all of these different things. But when I think about what would another midwife would do in this situation, I am thinking about Vnie's midwifery. And uh I'll think of it as uh Philippi's and Candra Woods Gordon's midwifery from now on.
SPEAKER_02:One of the things I loved about the Barney edition that I had is that the like I think it was the mechanisms for the um things you do to resolve a shoulder dystocia. The first one was breathe. And the second one was call for help. And that was so helpful because, you know, as a new midwife, you're like, how am I gonna do all this? What's going on? Like the shoulder isn't feeling right. And then the first thing is just stop, take a moment, breathe, get some other help for you. Like you don't have to be everything, you don't have to be perfect in that first moment of recognition of anything. Um, and so I think hopefully the words that we have in this text resonate with people so that they too feel like they can admit their humanness in the middle and tell other people who will come in and help them and be part of a team. Um, hopefully throughout the book, we're infusing that you are human and you can do this.
SPEAKER_01:One of the very first things I say to students, to any kind of learner, midwifery students, residents, is breathe in and breathe out. Nothing is gonna change in that little tiny bit of time, but all the time it clears the noise, right? It lets you decide to clear the noise. I'm like, that should be the first step in all the things that we do. I even have to tell myself that when I'm dealing with students, just breathe in and breathe out.
SPEAKER_03:So true.
SPEAKER_01:Such a good way to like manage your emotions, manage an emergency, manage all of the things that I think we deal with on a day-to-day basis. This has been such a great conversation. And I want to wrap up and talk a little bit with the two of you about what you think some actionable things are for midwives in terms of writing and publishing from our brand new baby midwives and our students all the way through our seasoned midwives. Are there things that you have as suggestions for our listeners?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I would say, as we've talked about already, just get going. What is it that is your clinical expertise that you'd like to share and update us all about? Or what do you need to learn more about that you want to learn more about and then share? Because those are good ways to start. And then one of the things I learned not right away when I started writing, but partway in is like you don't have to have a half a day to spare to write. You can write a paragraph today and a paragraph tomorrow. So put some notes in your calendar, just like Kara does when she has a peer review, do, but make some writing dates for yourself. If you can gather a writing group, if you happen to be with, you know, no others that write, that can help, but just get going. And then if I could just say one last thing about our journal, what I always like to tell people is for those that are ACM members, ACNM midwives, this is your journal. It's your journal. Write for us, your review for us, get in touch with us. And, you know, we're celebrating right now the 70th year of the journal of midwifery and women's health. And so in it is sort of our progression as the American College of Nurse Midwives sort of version of Midwives, if you will, but it's our history and our progression, both in practice and policy and the growth of our scope of practice over 70 years. So if you're gonna be at the meeting in Palm Springs coming up, come to our session, which this year, instead of just focusing on authors or peer reviewers, we're doing a session for everybody how to write, read, and review all the various types of systematic reviews to celebrate 70 years and to talk to everybody about your journal and how you can be part of it.
SPEAKER_02:I I think my advice is to write long and then edit. Don't be afraid of a messy first draft. You're gonna have those headings, right? And you're gonna wander under the heading, and that's fine. Then when you go back, you can edit and put things back in in the order that they need to be in. And maybe you need to adjust your headings because it didn't flow the way you thought it would flow. But that first draft, just give yourself permission for it to be messy. I find it so much easier to edit than I do to sit down and do that first draft. Sometimes I like to say that I have to just chain myself to my chair. Um, and if I'm struggling to do that, I'll go to a coffee shop or someplace where I can't get up and leave my computer. Um, so that I have to sit there and do that thing. Just briefly, once I get that first draft, I'm not so scared anymore of that blank page. So um just give yourself permission to sit down and do it and let it be messy and then work with your colleagues. They can help you edit too.
SPEAKER_00:That is a piece of advice. And the way I say that exact same thing is I say, just start swinging it down. Because it will and it is easy to go back and fix.
SPEAKER_01:My philosophy is if I can get my article 75% of the way there, I'm gonna submit it because it's gonna come back with a ton of edits, right? So I get it as close as I can because it's never gonna be perfect. And if you submit thinking your article is perfect, your feelings will be very hurt when you get your first set of revisions back because nothing is ever perfect the first time. Kara, are there things that you have thought about in your writing that you're like that we haven't already covered?
SPEAKER_03:No, I think we've hit on a lot of them. I love the idea of um having a writing group. Um, I am really terrible at protecting my own time. And I put appointments for myself and timelines in my calendar all the time and I give that time away so readily. But if I have an accountability partner or even just like what I mean, an another colleague from a different institution, she and I will sit together in the same room and just work beside each other because having that accountability is really, really helpful. So um, I don't know if others are like me, but I see, you know, nodding heads whenever I say this of like, I give my time away all the time and I I need to protect that and and work towards my own goals because they're just as important as everyone else's goals for me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, just yesterday someone texted me, like, are you in your office? And I was like, No, I'm hiding somewhere else to get three manuscripts done. So sometimes you just have to find your quiet space, line that time off and do it for you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and Kara and I have this rhythm of um, I plan a lot of things and then she operationalizes them. So, like when I want to write something or edit something, like we have our own our workbook out, I'll be like, okay, Kara, I've done all the planning. Now I just need you to like actually start doing the thing. And she's great at that, um, like recognizing when she like has planning paralysis, right? And needs somebody else to do that so that she can then, you know, just dig into the work. I love, I cannot reiterate enough how much I love a writing team. And I have different teams for different things, right? I have a team of people that I work on academic articles with, and then I have a different team that I work on clinical practice articles with. And my teams look different depending on what I want to write. And if I have an idea, I'm like, which team is that that I'm gonna tap to help me write this? And we go back and forth between first author and second author and back and forth between what journals we publish in. And so that is a lot of um, it's a lot of us trying to figure out like getting in that rhythm, right? Of um, of just, you know, getting the right people right at the table to help us and to stay motivated and um to move our work forward. So this has been so, so lovely. I um, you know, I have known the both of you for so long and since I was even a baby midwife 20 years ago. And I can't reiterate to our listeners enough that these are midwives that I knew when I was a student and then became people and professional mentors to me and people then that now I can text message when I want to because we're all such good friends. Um, and it's it's been so great to have you on our podcast and to just have you in um Chara and I's, you know, community of midwives.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we absolutely love celebrating really incredible people and getting a chance to tell them how incredible they are. So, Julia and Melissa, um, we can't thank you enough. You guys have been incredible mentors to both of us and um good friends, good friends. So thanks for all that you're doing to build midwifery, grow midwifery, get the word out there um and help writers as well. So thanks so much for sharing your expertise um with us today.
SPEAKER_00:It's been great to be here. Thank you. I would say the thanks are to you. This has been great fun.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thanks for joining us for the Engaged Midwife podcast. We can't wait to talk to you again. Take care.